Dallas PD Chief’s Solution for Date Rape: Women Quit Drinking

Back in the day, I covered my fair share of government meetings – county, city, school board, the occasional state lege committee meeting. So I don’t envy Andrea Grimes at the Dallas Observer one bit when she has to go cover these meetings. There’s a reason they don’t sell tickets and concessions at these things: Nobody wants to go.

But yesterday, in the course of live-blogging the Public Safety committee meeting, she had to have sat straight up, I’m guessing, just from her account of Chief David Brown going through recent crime statistics. Rape, he said, was up nearly 25 percent.

That’s a lot of rape.

So council member Delia Jasso asks about it. And here comes the really sit up in your seat and ask, “Did he just say…”

I’ll let Andrea take over the narrative now:

The answer, unfortunately: More rapes, says Chief Brown, specifically date rapes. And we all know what the solution to date rape is: getting women to stop drinking, because that is what causes date rape. Not dudes raping women, but women drinking.

“We’re needing to create a message to the victims of this type of crime, related to, you know, someone you don’t know that well, you having a little bit too much to drink,” explains Chief Brown, suggesting women, “have your friends watch you” if you intend to drink in front of a man.

So date rape solved? Don’t drink if you have two x chromosomes. Forget the fact that the drunk cannot consent to sex, and nonconsensual sex = rape.

I’m sure glad we cleared that up.

Comments

  • I have been dealing with stupidity all day and now I read this. My faith in our city’s leadership can’t afford too many more blows. Maybe there was more context to this statement? Maybe? Please?

  • towski

    Uh oh.

  • yvonne

    Oh my Gawd… I am so taken back by this stupid statement… “What causes date rape is women drinking…! not dudes raping women..”

    If I don’t have a heart attack, I will regroup and post more later….

  • yvonne

    @ jeff… thank you.. I am waiting for more context… Please….. Maybe? as you say.. oh my.

  • Bethany Anderson

    To be clear, that was Grimes summarizing Chief Brown’s statement – he didn’t actually say that. His statement is below that graph, in the quotes.

  • Tom

    So I guess Chief Brown is against the ballot issues that expand alcohol sales?

  • Kayla

    To think I actually missed my former home of Dallas, Texas. The fact this man is chief of police just helped me decide it was probably better for my personal safety that I did move.

  • TLS

    Where is the part where the woman should be wearing a burka while not drinking?

  • towski

    Hey, look out there everybody! Storms a brewin…

  • Eric

    Is there a transcript? How is this not everwhere? This is an outrage!

  • I’d never condone such a message, but that seems just a bit out of context.

  • JoelZ

    Let’s consider a common scenario. A young woman goes out to drink and gets totally wasted – slurring, stumbling, etc. A young man gets equally wasted. They stumble into bed together.

    The next morning, she feels icky and decides she’s been date-raped. She cries “I’ve been date-raped” as a way of dealing with her own guilt over her own freely chosen behavior. The young man’s reputation is ruined. Yay, feminism!

    Roger Devlin, “Sexual Utopia in Power”
    http://dontmarry.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/sexualutopia.pdf

  • Wes Mantooth

    I’m just wondering if his follow up statement will be something like “They shouldn’t dress like that. You know they want it if they are dressed like that.”

    Maybe he’s been taking crime prevention tips from Mel Gibson.

  • gwyon

    Oh dear.

  • I, for one, am not shocked in the least by this statement.
    I am appalled by the thought, but not surprised, as I
    Have heard the very same thing from other police officers
    In the city where I went to college. Sadly, there is
    Still widespread victim-blaming within the law enforcement
    Community. It isn’t like “Law & Order: SVU” everywhere.

  • Hey, @JoelZ: let’s consider this scenario instead. A young woman wakes up feeling icky because she has, in fact, BEEN DATE-RAPED.

    She tells no one, because she’s worried that no one will believe her. And that maybe she shouldn’t have worn that skirt. And that maybe no man should be trusted. Ever.

    Let’s consider that. ‘Kay?

  • No, means no.

    To TLS, I bet if the woman wore a white sheet over her head, the chief would get spooked, and shut the hell up. He’s as big a moron as Bolton……. go figure. No wonder most of the force can’t stand him. If he wants to go back in time, there are plenty of bubbas in the metroplex, who’ll gladly accomodate him!

  • Rawlins Gilliland

    Is this is the same Andrea Grimes who is said to have completely invented several ‘quotes’ recently attributed to Dallas women speakers at a luncheon of female attorneys? Of maybe 3 quotes, fellow attendees posted on the Observer that Grimes was not ‘summarizing’ what was actually said; she in three cases, it was posted, completely put words in their mouth. In other words, made it up.

    Like the one about Judge Sarah Hughes walking in the men’s lunch room and Grimes saying the speaker telling this well-known story added ‘they (the men) ‘were appalled’. Not said. Or Grimes’ suggestions that the story one woman told about a pregnant attorney removed from the case because she was pregnant… discriminated against being the point of the speaker’s story… when in fact the cases were merely delayed, not reassigned, and by the other side who did not want the jury to be sympathetic to a pregnant woman. All this was clear at the luncheon but totally replayed by Grimes according to other women attending.

    I could write volumes about women being discriminated at that time in Dallas since I recall my own mother crying after being told she was being forced 50 years ago to use a male pseudonym when reviewing ‘controversial’ books as a Dallas News book review columnist. But it is dishonest to simply invent quotes~~~ then or now~~~ to create controversy. (Or pump up the blog numbers). And it is also very destructive & worse to do so as sport for no better reason than the person being tarred is male or female.

    I know it’s cool to suddenly be playing gender-centric neo-1970s games regarding what people actually say vs. how others claim they spoke…or even to interpret what they meant. But to me, hanging people out to dry, with an agitator’s agenda being the motivation to twist and shout, that’s every bit as shocking as the Chief’s ‘summarized’ comment in question here IF: Said ‘summarizing’ is not taking liberties 2) The speaker’s words are being said as stated (rather than summered) & 3) Those words are not quoted out of context as we watched last week with Shirley Sherrod.

  • Chris

    @mrsf5,

    So does that mean that the woman also raped the man, since he was drunk as well and drunk = no consent? If so that rape stat is gonna have go wayyyyy up.

  • Doug

    Guess i’ll be the contrarian here, i don’t see anything about drinking causing rape in his quote. What i see is a suggestion for friends to keep an eye on each other when they’re out partying, something guys do all the time. If you’re friend isn’t acting herself, maybe it’s because something was slipped in her drink, a friend would probably be able to notice something like that if they were keeping an eye on one another when out partying.

  • dude
  • Chris

    Doug, Doug, Doug, apparently you don’t understand how page views are generated on blogs. Common sense don’t sizzle, and we got advertising to sell!

  • Brian

    The topic of rape is itself inflammatory. Imagine the same 25% increase in unarmed robberies, after 10:00, at nightclubs throughout Dallas. Chief Brown would not be out of line invoking the Buddy System then. His comments aren’t excusing anyone. Going by the quoted portion of his comments, he didn’t even say anything about not drinking. He’s just urging people to look out for each other.

  • yvonne

    @ dude – after watching the video of the Chief talking..from Jeanne Prejean’s post on Facebook . I am still wondering why he didn’t talk more about the “raper”…. and what they shouldn’t do , instead of what the rapee should do… !

  • Bethany Anderson

    I know y’all are hitting refresh on this to see what commenters are saying, but I’ve followed-up.

    http://frontburner.dmagazine.com/2010/08/03/dallas-police-chiefs-solution-to-date-rape-ctd/

  • Maybe, Yvonne, for the same reason police, and security specialists, don’t talk about what the robber shouldn’t do, and what the potential victim should. Rapers shouldn’t rape. Wow, ok, now that we’ve got that bombshell out of the way, what are some things that POTENTIAL VICTIMS could do to decrease their chance of being a victim for being robbed? How bout the buddy system, or not drinking too much, or watching out for your friend if they start acting out of character, staying in well lit areas….Try lighting a candle instead of cursing the darkness.

  • LoLo

    This is really too bad. I get what he’s trying to say, but he is failing, terribly bad, to get his point across. Instead it just sounds insensitive and accusatory to women.
    My faith in humanity leads me to believe he is commenting on the vulnerable nature of both sexes when they drink, which is true. But my innate sense of pessimism leads me to believe he, in actually, doesn’t know what he is talking about.

  • Bethany Anderson

    LoLo, that’s exactly my thoughts. He’d have been fine if he had stopped with, “I’ll have a report for the mayor on that soon.”

  • huh?

    “Forget the fact that the drunk cannot consent to sex, and nonconsensual sex = rape.”

    are you honestly suggesting that a woman’s ability to consent is automatically gone simply beecause her blood alcohol reaches a particular point? ( And seriously, what point is that?) This is one of the most offensive things I’ve read in a while. At what point do you then stop allowing drunk people to claim “not responsible” for their own actions??

  • tinkerbell

    Another point…. a woman doesn’t have to be drunk to be date-raped. She just has to be weaker physically, and isolated from those who could intervene.

  • Bethany Anderson

    Huh: I’m saying that anyone – man or woman – cannot consent to sex when falling down drunk.

    The following link explains it further.

    http://www.safercampus.org/blog/?p=346

  • Michael Davis

    I think Rawlins’ comment above and the actual clip basically cover the issue. Do you actually think that if Chief Brown REALLY said such a thing of which he was accused that Councilwoman Jasso would have replied and continued the conversation? Keep in mind there are other councilwomen on the Public Safety Committee.

    Grimes is an amateur, and I’m glad someone had the actual video in this case. But hey, consider the source.

  • samh

    Nearly all rapes are committed by repeat offenders within our population.

    So no, that whole “oops, the guy didn’t mean to do anything, honest!” scenario is bull. If asked if he rapes (even with the guarantee of anonymity) he will answer no. When asked the same question but with a description of his activities instead of using the actual word “rape”, he will admit to it.

    Think about it: if you commit a violent rape, you will most likely (though not always) be painted as scum. So why commit violent rape when you can just rape women in a way that paints the women to be the responsible party in the eyes of society? Even if she goes to the police (or her friends, or her family) there’s a good chance she won’t be believed.

  • Zee

    Someone else on here has said this, and I am going to reiterate it. There seems to be a very large misconception of what exactly Date-rape entails. Date-rape occurs when someone is purposefully drugged, either through alcohol or something like Roofies, and then taken advantage of. Generally, it occurs either when you are on a date, or you are “picked up” by the rapist. That said, this means that you drinking lots with your friends is not going to lead to Date-rape. It might lead to rape in the legal sense, where you are unable to give consent, but not to date-rape.

    I also have to agree, after reading multiple articles, and watching a video, he phrased it wrong. Like others have said, if he had stopped with his first few comments, it would have been fine. But he didn’t. The way he phrased it seemed very offensive, and brushed over the larger issue.

  • Eric

    Is this sort of like the Whoopi Goldberg “rape-rape” thingy?

  • This police chief really needs to read these rape prevention tips: http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/09/sexual-assault-prevention-tips-guaranteed-to-work/

    They work every time!

  • What horrifies me is the number of, and why is it ALWAYS men who say such things, people who want to do away with date rape all together.

    DO you honestly think the common behavior for the “coyote ugly” moment for women is to cry rape? DO you realize what that requires? It requires: medical examination, hiring a lawyer, enduring a length trial, and possible chastisement by your local community.

    Do people lie about crimes committed against them? YEP. All the time? Is this fact unique to women? NO. Is this fact exclusive to date rape? HELL NO.

    Intoxicated consent laws exist to protect women from such claims as “Oh well she just regreted it”

    I was date raped by a former boyfriend and former close friend. I did not pursue charges, even though I should, but what I emotionally endured (and financially. the morning after pill was NO cheap when this happened) should not happen to anyone. Nor should I EVER be accused of “wanting to get back at him”.

    Sexism is a dangerous thing. Instead of being a scared child about equality, embrace all the wonderful things that come from seeing women as your equal.

  • Ian

    Looking at what the Chief said in context, he was proposing an awareness program for the community, albeit in a poorly worded way. I don’t think there was any blame throwing, simply just an idea that wasn’t thought all the way through before exiting his mouth. Should he have said it? Probably not. But was there any form of veiled sexism behind it? I doubt it. Just not the best choice of words for a very sensitive topic.

  • Chelsea

    While we’re at it ladies, let’s revert back to the days where we couldn’t vote or were paid substantially less than men. Equal rights, who needs ’em! Rape must be completely one-sided then right? Men who can’t keep it in their pants shouldn’t be at fault then since they can just chalk it up to being drunk? Ugh, this disgusts me.

  • Bethany Anderson

    Ok, seriously people. There have been several other posts about this. Updates. Words from me. Words from the chief.

  • Wow. Phyllis Schlafly and this guy ought to get together and write a book. A really big THICK book- which they could then use to hurl at one another at book signings, so that people would come.

    The Neanderthals are collectively coming out of their closets. I really wish they’d go back in.

  • Hadley

    This enrages me. If the Chief of Police is going to make a statement,maybe he should proof it before opening his idiotic mouth. If he’s saying that women should be careful when they are out drinking, I would have to say I agree. I am always very aware of who’s around me and I never leave my drink unattended. However, that is not the only cause of date rape.He needs to make another statement including an apology to women. He also needs to get his point across in another way. He needs to choose his words carefully.

  • Maverynthia

    After watching the video, it still seems that he’s blaming the victim a bit. He’s using the old tried “Have a buddy, don’t walk down dark alleys at night, always have someone there to control you..etc.” rather than addressing the main issue there of why the crap is the percentage up 25% and what they police is doing to stop it, or profile the people that are raping these women and why they think they have a right to do it. Was it the media? Peer pressure? The type of people they hang around?

    Nope, it’s all the victims fault, she didn’t have someone looking out for her! Shame on her, if only she did, that wouldn’t have happened!

  • k

    I just found out from my mother that she was date raped a year ago and it took me so much time to make her realize that it wasn’t her fault and to hear this bs. I just cannot. I dont even

  • Mari

    this one time, i was at the club, and a bottle of vodka raped me…

    oh wait, that’s right. alcohol doesn’t rape- people rape.

  • Kirsten

    Zee, your definition of date rape is wrong. Date rape is rape by a rapist known to the victim, rather than a stranger. It’s rape by the man who takes you out to dinner, drops you at home and then rapes you. It’s rape by the man who walks you home, pushes you into an alley and forces himself on you. It’s rape by somebody you know and trust, rather than the axe-wielding stranger in the shrubbery. Drugs and alcohol might be involved, but they’re not a prerequisite.

  • David

    It’s pretty idiotic how everyone is shoving words in his mouth and trying to make it sound like he’s blaming rape on the victims. He just realizes it’s rather hard to change the mind of the would-be rapist without changing the law to be even harsher, so he tries to give the would-be victims advice to help prevent the situation.

    And it’s sound advice. Does anyone deserve to be raped? Of course not. Does it happen? Yes. Would it be somewhat reduced by women not drinking to intoxication around people they don’t know well yet? Absolutely. He’s not trying to justify it happening. Just trying to give some common sense advice to prevent it.

  • Wordem

    I hope Pinner sees this.

  • C Smith

    Date rape is a difficult subject all together. Many people been legitimately date raped while many people have simply used it as a way to avoid taking full responsibility for their own actions. In a society of double standards, it is necessary for both women AND men to take actions to prevent the possibility of date rape and being accused of it.

    For the women: Watch each other’s backs. That is what the PD chief was trying to get at. Do you really think a potential rapist is easy to spot? The chief aiming his words to anyone other than the victims would fall on deaf ears. You cannot rely on others catching these criminals ahead of time- you HAVE to take care of yourself and your friends. There are no psychic police or bouncers who can sniff out a rapist before he attacks. You do what you can, and in this respect you have someone make sure you or your friends don’t end up in a bad situation. Otherwise the only thing you can do is deal with the problem after it has happened.

    To the men: Don’t sleep with intoxicated women. Period. Even if you are just as blitzed as her, don’t do it. Just like many people on this post have said- there are many of women out there who will cry “rape” simply because they made a mistake at some party or some bar (especially if they cheated on a bf to do it!). Even though you know and are expected to respect the fact that men and women are equal- even though men and women have equivalent abilities to make logical and well thought out decisions in the same situations, today’s society WILL peg you a rapist in in a situation where you are both equally intoxicated and equally consenting. It is called double standards and something you simply have to accept. Whining about it and complaining about it will accomplish nothing. The only thing you can do is watch out for yourself and your friends. Just as women need to protect themselves from predators, so do you. If you sleep with a woman who is intoxicated and you have full knowledge that this could happen to you… sorry, but you deserve it. It sucks and you have my sympathy, truly you do, but as I said before: there are no psychic police or bouncers to sniff out some woman looking for a good time but without the accountability associated with it. And if, to her, the burdens of dealing with finances, doctors, lawyers, and whatever else outweigh losing her bf/husband over the ordeal: man you are screwed. So if the opportunity arises to get laid and she’s intoxicated then the only safe thing you can do is turn it down and wait till she’s sober.

  • dcotler

    Isn’t the Chief’s advice just what any sensible parent would tell a daughter? Don’t drink too much, don’t trust strangers, stay near your friends.

  • chris524

    Okay, try this scenario instead. Burglaries are up 25%. In order to help combat this problem, we suggest you don’t leave your windows open and have your neighbors watch your house for suspicious activity. We’re not suggesting that you’re to blame for having your house robbed. We just want you to take reasonable precautions.

  • Europeandesigner

    truth does not work on this blog, does it?

  • texastransplant

    It seems that Feminism has embued Women with the mistaken belief that because they have a right to not be raped. That they can act and behave recklessly without consequences. That is simply not true. We have also been coerced to believe that any Female sexual experience that a Woman regrets with a Man is rape. So we have guilt rape, date rape, Persuasion rape, etc. The same advice holds true for Men with too much cash in their pockets. Flashing lots of cash when you are drunk makes you a target for robbery or mugging.

    Nowhere did Chief Brown say consumption of alcohol gives Men a free license to rape Women. You cannot sell that BS illogic anymore. Maybe in Women’s Studies. But even Women know that is nonsense.

    There has always been predators. There has always been Men with lack of self control. Do not make yourself a target, is what the Chief is saying. Exercise better judgment and awareness of how you can put yourself at risk.

    Men should by now realize that any Sex with a Woman who is too drunk should be considered legally to be non consensual. To think otherwise is to invite a Rape charge.