Is A Liberal Agenda Killing Newspapers?

We all know the economic factors that are assaulting newspaper advertising: loss of classifieds to the internet, etc. But this post about the LATimes — and especially the comments following the post — point to a little-discussed reason for the newspaper industry’s loss of readership. It’s the relentless push for an agenda not shared by a large segment of its community. If, as one commenter puts it, 40% of LA readers are conservative and 20% don’t care, how can a newspaper survive trying to reach only the remaining 40% ? (Use your own estimates to translate those percentages to Dallas).

I bring this up because I had breakfast yesterday with a Dallas civic leader about a project, and he mentioned that the editorial board of the DMN is supportive. I was surprised at my own reaction, and I almost tried to cover it up. But the fact is, I winced. And it dawned on me for the first time while I was sitting there that the DMN’s support may hurt more than it may help.  That was an astonishing revelation to me. I realized then that I share the perception of many in Dallas that the “good” causes that the DMN supports are too often  “liberal” causes, that to DMN editors, reporters, and columnists the words are synonymous. And that’s a reason why I have come to pay less and less attention to what it says.


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61 responses to “Is A Liberal Agenda Killing Newspapers?”

  1. LM says:

    The DMN is liberal? Are you kidding? I don’t think the Trinity River project is “liberal.” Or the support of mostly Republican candidates. Or the deportation of Jenny to Mexico. Give us some of your examples, please.

  2. chuck says:

    Note to DMN: slow suicide is not pretty to watch.

  3. Chris says:

    The reason that those dispatched by the DMN move so easily into corporate communications and public relations is not because the paper is liberal or conservative but because it’s long been no more than a corporate chop shop through and through. Readers recognize early on that the DMN is just a big corporate newsletter with self-serving, handpicked content, not a community newspaper.

  4. alfred says:

    how did i know before i was half-done reading the headline who would end up being the author of this particular piece of tripe?
    ‘the media’ in dallas is liberal? ‘the media’ in dallas is too vast to be characterized in this way. But if you insist:
    ‘the media’ in dallas includes promiment members Belo, Clearchannel, Murdochian enterprises and, um, Wick. Where’s the liberal in there?

  5. Trey Garrison says:

    Do words like liberal and conservative really have any meaning outside arguments between those two camps?

    Is any one person or organization so narrowly drawn as to be defined by such simplistic words?

    (Note: I have been awake for going on 28 hours and drove from one Taos to Texas between 8 last night and 6 this morning, so take these questions with a grain of salt.)

  6. MushMouth says:

    Good Lord! Liberal… really?
    How about newspapers no longer cover local news. Ads take up about 80% of the content.

  7. Dallasite says:

    Methinks thou dost protest too much, Libs.

  8. Russ says:

    How does one explain D’s support of the multimillion-dollar Trinity River development?

  9. Dave Thomas says:

    Wick, I agree with your assessment of the problem 100%. However, I think you lose any credibility on this topic because you are an Obama supporter. You are supporting the biggest liberal cause there is.

    Yeah, maybe the DMN editorial board support hurts projects here more than it helps. The other comments above do make it seem that liberals aren’t too happy with the DMN board either. But maybe that’s because the DMN editorial board is just like you: conservatives supporting liberal causes.

    The DMN board tries to reach out to these liberals with a “me too!” attitude, but get rebuffed because of all the conservative causes and candidates they have supported in the past. Meanwhile they anger conservatives for turning their backs on them. It’s an overall loss of credibility. Your support of Obama causes you to suffer the same loss of credibility.

  10. Darr says:

    Most unfortunate. I grew up loving the newspapaers, but the DMN deserves the slow death it is experiencing. That they don’t make local govenrment accountable by exercising excellent journalism is a major reason why the condistions of the streetasare as they are, we have lousy mass transit, wer’re gonna spend obscene amounts on a so-called Trinity Park, and city and county politicians have no accoubtablilty.
    Thanks DMN, the state of this city is in large part, because of your corporate greed and lack of local conscience.

  11. Wick Allison says:

    The Trinity River project is liberal? That makes the Observer, its biggest opponent, conservative? I’m beginning to see Trey’s point. Among a large swath of the blogosphere, largely consisting of people who have never read Edmund Burke or Russell Kirk, these words have lost their meaning.

  12. Dallasite says:

    “How does one explain D’s support of the multimillion-dollar Trinity River development?”

    A giant park? Liberal as hell. Conservatives don’t even want the toll road. And Wick, the Observer isn’t opposed to the Trinity River project, they are opposed to anything less than a hippie-paradise park project. Both the DMN and the Observer want the pork, they just want different versions of the pork.

  13. Dallasite says:

    Let’s count the major liberal causes that the DMN has supported:

    1. Illegal immigration? Check.
    2. Sending more welfare to failed programs in S Dallas instead of addressing the real issues? Check
    3. A giant taxpayer funded pork project (trinity river)? Check.
    4. Virtually ignoring the corruption and waste at city hall? Check.
    5. Building a $26 million homeless “assistance” center in Downtown Dallas that will only lead to more vagrants living on our streets? Oh hell yeah, check.
    6. A timetable to lose the Iraq war? Check.

    The list goes on…

  14. Darr says:

    Edmund Burke or Russell Kirk, do they write for Buddy magazine?

  15. Radial says:

    Newspapers have always taken editorial positions on the issues of the day, and usually can be described as a ‘conservative paper’ or a ‘liberal paper’.

    In the scenario outlined (a market that’s 40% liberal, 40% conservative, and 20% in the middle), a conservative paper would have just as much of a problem as a liberal paper. Maybe there could be two papers for that market?

    Of course both papers would have the problem of presenting the news in a way that was more appealing than TV news or Internet news.

  16. Dallasite says:

    “In the scenario outlined (a market that’s 40% liberal, 40% conservative, and 20% in the middle), a conservative paper would have just as much of a problem as a liberal paper. Maybe there could be two papers for that market?”

    How about one that just reported factual news? The reading may be dry, but it would be a hell of a lot more effective. We don’t need to be lectured to. I certainly don’t need a journalist to tell me the difference between right and wrong, yet that’s what we have to deal with in every single column.

    The editorial page is only place where opinion should be placed.

  17. Dave In Texas says:

    Er, what ‘factual’ news have you been missing? I grant you, in this era of shorter stories, more local focus and such, stories likely lack the nuance and breadth we’d like to see.

    But what is this bias you speak of in the news reports? A few details please.

  18. Dave In Texas says:

    Below are the editorials for Saturday and Friday in the DMN. Can anyone explain how these are too liberal? Innocuous? Sure. Silly? Maybe. But liberal?

    Unless you mean anything negative about John McCain – and, Sweet Jesus, I’ve heard worse from Republicans.


    Editorial: Math adds up for girls, not boys
    If you still think girls aren’t as good at math as boys, it’s time to think again.

    Hits and Misses: An impressive mentor
    Anne Armstrong advised presidents, served as ambassador to Great Britain and held Republican leadership posts in Texas and Washington. But Ms. Armstrong, who died this week at age 80, also was a relentless advocate for women in all levels of the federal government.


    Editorial: Blame subsidies for oil, trade problems
    Don’t be fooled by the recent dip in world oil prices. The factors that caused prices to spike have not disappeared, and global trade patterns underscore the likelihood that a new round of increases could happen at any time.

    Editorial: McCain off the mark in over-the-top ads
    When John McCain assumed the mantle of presumptive Republican nominee, he laid out a clear game plan.

    Editorial: Neglectful parenting makes kids fat

  19. Jack E. Jett says:

    This headline looks like something right out of The Onion. Almost like, Fox News, fair and balanced. Even though many of us left wing nutcases believe the MSM was just a responsible as Bush/Cheney in this lead up to the Iraq debacle, I am not sure that is the case. I think the USA has never been so divided and thus it creates divisiness in the press.
    I’ve noticed, in my days as an annoying blogosapian, that people don’t merely disagree, they are each in their own corner of a cyber verbal boxing ring.
    This causes people to retreat further and deeper into their own belief system and rarely venture outside it.
    Like going to Lubys and ordering the same damn LuAnn platter every day.

  20. kirk says:

    DMN Liberal!! Wow, hey maybe The LA times could boost advertisng revenue by listing the “50 best (Fill in the blank). After all the number of plastic surgeons, realtors and doctors in L.A. would be willing to pay to be on that list

  21. Rawlins Gilliland says:

    The DMN is ‘liberal’ compared to when my mother wrote there 50 years ago and was gulping Miltowns (the 50s ear barbiturate depression drug routinely dispersed to ‘agitated’ women meaning frustrated professional with masters degrees reporting to entitled tyrants) to cope with the male throne room dogma. But I think a lot of people see a paper as ‘liberal’ when it is no longer purely ‘conservative’. The Bush years have blurred the lines for us all since almost everyone agrees they have been a travesty. (Where Lib/Con people more likely differ is when they discuss what part and WHY they feel the Bush years were a travesty.)

    I’ve contributed myriad op-Eds to the news in this century (placed next to Thomas Sowell and Mark Davis, neither known eaters of sushi) and my editor or conduit was often Rod Dreher, hardly a wild-eyed male Susan Sarandon type decoupaging Huffington Post columns into fridge magnets. And since my emails following more than one column ran 50/50 that I was either a ‘conservative Nazi’ or a ‘liberal freak’ it’s hard to not agree with Trey that no one has a clue what ‘Liberal / Conservative mean to post Cyber land dyslectics….or for that matter the ‘agenda’ of DMN staff. All I can tell you is that behind the editorial board scenes that is a very caring and dedicated group of ‘caught in the undertow’ pros.

    I think this is being over-thought. The truth is that even I find myself reading the news online when my paper is in the driveway. Even at times when I have a column in it. Times are changing and the rip tide is leaving a lot of shells on the beach. But to people who are applauding the DMN erosion, warning; be careful what you wish for.

  22. What the fuck does “liberal” mean? It just means “over the top”. “Conservative” means “barely getting by” minimalist, etc. The newspapers are dying because people aren’t accepting that watered down crap anymore, they are killing themselves and there is no “liberal agenda” only an agenda of progress. Conservatism increasingly means neophyte these days. Yes, I said it. Conservatives are neophytes.

  23. Harvey Lacey says:

    I see McCain is claiming the New York Times’ problems are because of their liberal slant. Great minds must think alike (snicker).

    DMN is liberal?

    Not in my book.

    But then I see conservatism as fear on stilts making jokes about foot races.

  24. Harvey Lacey says:

    Rawlins, just for grins consider for a minute the demise of newspapers is not unlike what happened to radio when television came on the scene.

    Radio evolved into specialty markets catering to niche groups. I can see newspapers becoming for all practical purposes daily magazines. And we all know what magazines are about, right? They’re the rubber tires on the marketing wheels.

    I’m excited about the future of the news business business. I’m not sure what it will look like but I know it won’t be like it is today and it sure won’t be like it was yesterday.

    The reason for my excitement is I see it becoming more interactive in that dispensing news will be more of a participant event than an observer one.

  25. wja4507 says:

    Over-thought, indeed. I get my news online first, with TV and newspapers a distant second/third. But if you must question whether the slow death is self-inflicted, then here’s a simple solution: (1) ask all the folks who write for the DMN if they are liberal, then (2) ask them if they believe that they exclude their liberal thinking from their writings. (Works for GOP, too). By the way, all of this media-on-media talk smacks of way too much self-interest…I don’t care about the media or what you people in the media think of other competing media companies or people. I just want to be told in a very matter-of-fact way what goes on in the world while I’m busy with work, family, home-life.

  26. publicnewsense says:

    Harvey: You wrote, “I can see newspapers becoming for all practical purposes daily magazines.”
    Already been tried by newspapers and failed. You may recall the various versions of Texas Living in the DMN — each day had a different theme.
    Newspapers belong to newspaper readers — on any given day a person can suddenly become a newspaper reader. It depends on the NEWS, not on the marketing.

  27. alfred says:

    wick, you got some of us on Kirk and Burke (and other minds whose names might also rhyme.) But you still hydroplaned right over the point … and so did the poster who thinks libs are over-protesting:
    The effort to reach in order to paint somebody with such a broad and unnecessary brush speaks more about Wick’s political views than it does the DMN’s.
    One more example: Is D Mag liberal? Sure. … Eric has liberal leanings, Tim has liberal leanings, and its obviously a place where women can get ahead. (Especially if they’re cute.) So D Mag is liberal, right, Wick?

  28. amanda says:

    I think Trey nailed it..liberal, conservative are terms with so much baggage, they are almost irrelevant.

    Going to the original question in the title…Yes, I think the media agenda is contributing to newspapers’ demise. BUT, like your post earlier in the week (oil/airlines), it’s not a straight line from A to B.

    Readers=Consumers. Consumers decide if they want a product. In the case of newspapers, there are numerous reasons why consumer either don’t want or need the product any longer. My personal opinion is that people are becoming over-advertised to, and immune to some extent to all print mediums. The one exception is the growth of the luxury magazine market. It’s an escape for consumers and entertainment.

    Locally, the DMN no doubt celebrated the demise on the Times Herald. I remember some of the commentary of the time. (It was as if “liberal” (-s, -ism) had been vanquished in Dallas for all time.) Not so fast… The DMN has discovered it’s not that easy. They suddenly had to appeal to the other 40%, thus alienating 20% of their original 40%, and becoming more pallatable to the other 20…

    Right now we are being told that John McCain is either: a) too liberal for the nomination of his party, or b) nothing more than a third term of W. B makes a great bumper sticker, but is an affront to true “conservatives” (most of whom dislike W as much as “liberals” do). On the other side, we are told that Barak Obama equals hope. Like a messiah, he will fix all of our problems, and save us. (How, and with so little experience and expertise, is another matter…)

    In this particular election, this particular year, and with these two canidates: yes, I think the constant biased reporting is hurting newspapers. Bernie Goldberg has made a cottage industry out of it… The problem is that the editors have sat on their laurels through now 3 election cycles before even entertaining that bias could be an issue. Meanwhile, the whole world has moved on to other mediums…

  29. Joan says:

    Wick just wanted to increase weekend page views and figured the best way was using the keywords: liberal, conservative, Dallas Morning News.

  30. Bill Marvel says:

    I have no idea what the words “liberal” and “conservative” might mean these days. Once upon a time they had some meaning. But that was another century and another universe altogether. What would you call folks who oppose abortion but favor a broad public agenda to help the poor? What would you call folks who do not like the administration’s tax policies but favor, for example, a hard line on illegal immigration? Such hard categories collapse in the face of the reality of what people actually believe and how they act.
    Let’s apply this outmoded analysis to your very own magazine: We’re all pretty much aware of D’s demographics. So, what would you call recent pieces on the Farmer’s Branch immigrant flap, the cheese epidemic, the Mayan scholar? Liberal? Conservative?
    Rod Dreher keeps making this same mistake. It’s what keeps him from being a serious political thinker. It’s what keeps large segments of both parties hopelessly out of touch with the electorate. Most people are neither conservative nor liberal. They may be “conservative” about one issue, “liberal” about another. Even that’s hard to tease out.
    As for newspaper’s declining readership, the causes are easy to see, impossible to cure. Technology has killed off general interest magazines. (Whatever happened to Life, what is happening to Time and Newsweek?) Yes, newspapers are out of touch with their readers. But leftiness, real or imagined, has nothing to do with it.

  31. Texas Flood says:

    Wow…what a long way to go to take a jab at the DMN…

    “I was surprised at my own reaction, and I almost tried to cover it up. But the fact is, I winced.”

    Seriously…get over yourself…

  32. AB says:

    WAIT, THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS IS LIBERAL?!?!?!?!?!? I bet that’s good for business then, isn’t it, Wick? Oh wait, did you just try to start another controversy out of a non-issue or a fictional issue? Like the one you started when D published an article featured on the cover of the mag. about how spoiled and arrogant residents of Southlake, TX are? Your office is in Highland Park. Do you need a new mirror? Please. Remember the H you had up in your hallway? It couldn’t possibly have stood for “hypocrite” now could it?

    No offense really, but don’t you have another “best teachers / lawyers / interior designers / ferrari dealerships” list to compile for next month’s issue? Stick to what you know and do best: glossing over superficial “issues,” publishing the whose-who photo lineup of Dallas society, and selling over half of your magazine to advertisers…oh, and don’t forget those “best of…” lists: because they’re not an old and tired, lazy copout to fill an issue at all, are they?

  33. Martin says:

    Wow, this is astonishing.
    Considering that this is an article on a BLOG, it is just incredible that nobody mentions the obvious real reason why newspapers are losing readers. They don’t want to pay for content that they can get for free online and mostly by the time the newspaper is printed, the “news” is out of date. Online it can be updated 24/7.
    The only thing newspapers had going for them was the in-depth reporting and more local stories, but that, as was mentioned by others, has been more and more eliminated.

    As for the DMN being liberal…please, you obviously have been one of those NOT reading it.

  34. Louisa Meyer, Dallas ISD parent since 1993 says:

    More local stories? Be careful what you ask for.

    DMN wrote full stories about credit cards at least 35 times which was nearly matched by the number of times their out of town “metro” columnists piled on tool. In the end, DMN had spent more money advertising the story via billboards, commercial spots and in print than the district ultimately lost from credit card misuse.

    Al Dia ran a story how a mentoring program at Thomas Jefferson High School yielded $8 million in scholarships for 20 students. My repeated searches of DMN’s website to see if the story had been reported there only turned up cheese. When I asked why the story wasn’t published in English, I was told it was old news.

    They spent a year writing about theft that was statistically normal for an organization of 20,000 but couldn’t write once about the kids at TJ.

    They’ve also poured more ink about a disgruntled trustee than the districts 100+ recognized and exemplary schools.

    And as several of our high schools continue to receive national attention for Advanced Placement programs, Kent Fischer, in his blog, calls the formula for the recognition cr*p – which thankfully hasn’t deterred donors

    DMN is not liberal or conservative but it is biased and it is predictable.

  35. Tom says:

    What I’m hearing from the gist of these comments is that Robert Decherd is using the DMN newspaper franchise to publish a different sort of D Magazine for his own purposes. It’s his right. He owns what’s left of it.

  36. amanda says:

    Louisa, you are correct…the content is skewed, bipolar, and confusing. You keep up the good fight, I love that you are passionate about the DISD kids.

  37. Emilio Velasquez, Jr. says:

    I hear such ingratitude and cruelty in your voices that it makes we weep with shame for you!

    While both Señor Obama and the Judge (is his name itself not Justice?) have prudently commanded that you gabachos immediately begin to do a better job of educating your children in the language of tomorrow’s economy, as Señor Wick himself has pointed out the noble and selfless Señor Decherd has diverted his own paid subscription money, money he could be counting in his counting house instead, to triple, TRIPLE the free distributions of Al Dia so that your children can learn the language they must have for tomorrow and so comply.

    Have you no decency?

    Now, where are our cabras?


  38. Gadfly says:

    Emilio, Help me with Spanish 101. Are you trying to find some goats?

  39. matt says:

    Is the DMN liberal? On the editorial page, yes. Otherwise I’d say it’s OK on balance with a slight leftward tilt. Not enough to explain the problems they’re having which as others have pointed out has more to do with industry trends.

    Bigger question: the industry is involved in too much navel gazing and true to the liberal leanings of the staff they want to ‘share’ their feelings with us. But is this angst contributing to the mood of–and overflow of hysteria about–a recession? After all as the saying goes, if I lose my job then I am in a recession. And lots of people in the industry have lost their jobs or are worried about it.

  40. More Kunkle Bell says:

    I have to hand it to you. You asked your staff to increase its blogging on the weekend and you are leading by example.

    I’m enjoying the parsing of comments and retorts; it’s kind of like debate club.

  41. trish says:

    The Cheney/Rove/Bush White House can be thanked for the economy, which has sped up the decline of newspapers. You still don’t get it, do you? It’s about the economy, stupid.

  42. amanda says:

    Trish…seriously? All the problems in the world are directly due to 3 people? Whatever you’re smoking, please share..

  43. Bill says:

    It’s not that they’re liberal or conservative.

    They’re just stupid.

  44. Bethany says:

    I feel like I’m repeating myself – but I don’t think you can blame three people, two ideologies, or even the economy wholly for the decline in newspapers.

    Yes, all three (or really, two of the three) have something to do with it. But it was the industry’s reluctance or shortsightedness in embracing technology and making a decision early on to be at the front of it, instead of playing catch-up, combined with all the other things, that have lead to the problems we’re seeing now.

    Newspapers missed their chance (and bungled it badly on the few instances they tried) to help shape, craft and guide the way the consumer uses the print publication and the Internet together.

  45. Daniel says:

    The L.A. Times may have a “liberal agenda,” but the DMN does not, except perhaps in the occasional feel-good human-interest ain’t-diversity-great feature. And that stuff is fluff, not a hardcore political agenda. The DMN is fundamentally a conservative instrument.

    Moreover, I doubt that only 40% of the LAT distribution area is liberal. More like 65% liberal, 17.5% “don’t care” and 17.5% are conservative. I pull these numbers from the same orifice whence came the pajamas media commenter’s numbers. Well, the analagous orifice.

    Newspapers in their present form are irrelevant — liberal, conservative or centrist. That’s the painful truth.

  46. Tom says:

    The media are as liberal as the conservative corporations that own them. What killed newspapers (besides the Internet) was Wall Street. Of course, it made Belo board members rich, so see my first sentence for more on that.

  47. E. Dallas Denizen says:

    Kudos to Louisa. Similarly, the DMN wouldn’t print the fact that W.T. White, Woodrow and Hillcrest are all ahead of every Collin County High School except Plano and Plano West in Newsweek Best in America AP rankings. Frisco High didn’t even make the list. But I’m sure the DMN gets a lot of advertising from the shabby homebuilders up there..

  48. Someone Else says:

    Wow, Matt thinks the DMN editorial page is liberal? Perhaps to Genghis Khan it is.

    What’s wrong is newspapers today is an extremely complex issue, one that begins with the fact that the business model has not kept pace with change. That’s not just a problem at the Dallas News; it’s a problem across the industry — in small towns and large, at papers with “liberal” editorial pages and those with “conservative” ones.

    It’s not about ideology. It’s about business.

    But at every newspaper I’ve ever seen, when circulation and advertising drop off, the tinkering begins with the newsroom — and the criticism of the public weighs in with complaints about the awful liberal press.

    And so the vultures are circling now.

    Journalists aren’t saints. They make mistakes.

    But Louisa and the rest of you, it is NOT any newsroom’s job to reflect your personal point of view in its reporting.

    Frankly, to try to boil the issues down to “Newspapers are liberal” is just plain idiotic.

  49. For those of you who do not think the DMN does not have a Liberal agenda, consider the following. One, the lack of opposing POVs to the paper’s position supporting Abortion on demand. Second, in 2003 the paper supported keeping the New York Times keeping the Pulitizer of Stalinist Walter Duranty. Care to guess the odds of the paper supporting that Pulitizer if Duranty had been a Nazi? Slim to none. Finally consider their support of Mike Huckabee for President. Lets just say with support like that who needs enemies?

  50. beacherbum says:

    When your perspective is to the far, far right, then anyone to your left (even moderate conservatives) are deemed liberal. Thus, to today’s neocons like Wick, even Nixon and the great Ike, himself, would be “condemned” as libs.

  51. Hoya says:

    The DMN isn’t Liberal or Conservative, it’s “Crunchy”. Now who can’t love “crunchy”, hmmmm?

    George Carlin is laughing at us all.

  52. julie says:

    John Carpenter–if it was you (or any man) who could get pregnant via a broken condom, an ill-fitting diaphragm, date rape, or incest…then the right to abortion on demand would be guaranteed in the Constitution.


    “If by a ‘Liberal’ they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people – their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties – someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a ‘Liberal,’ then I’m proud to say I’m a Liberal.”
    John F. Kennedy

  53. Yes, Abortion is choice people make; but is it the right one? I think women deserve better, and think the DMN should allow viewpoints other than Julies which are straight out of the NARAL Playbook. They do not.

  54. I also guess for some of you diversity should be just racial and sexual. I tend to think papers should allow both to heard. Unlike the DMN, which requires strict conformity to NARAL or Planned Parenthood guidelines.

  55. julie says:

    JC, it’s great that you think women deserve better than abortion. However, no one forces any woman to have one. I, like most liberals, would like to see fewer of them. But in the end, it needs to be kept legal and safe. Make no mistake–if outlawed, it’ll still go on. Just with coat hangers instead of surgery equipment. Women definitely deserve better than that, right?

  56. alfred says:

    jc, u need to read julie’s ‘if men’ post over again. It’s not that ‘abortion is a choice some people make’; it’s that the ‘choice’ has for 2000 years been made by mean. … as are the laws, laws that men make to govern women that the men themselves — were they forced to — would not live under.
    but what does this have to do with Wick being a neo-con again?

  57. Someone Else says:

    Way to hijack the thread. Kudos to julie and john carpenter.

  58. So there................. says:

    Someone Else, my sentiments exactly.

    Meanwhile if anyone wants to know how to not get pregnant, my mother shared about 15 off the top of my hat and all of them have worked for lo these many decades. Abortion was maybe 23…intended as a last resort rather than the prophalactic of 2008 choice.

    Strange to think others were then or now apparently not so hip as my activist role-model career mother who, unlike the armchair feminists today, really worked at making this a world where women had opportunities instead of babies. Or abortions.

  59. julie says:

    So many self-righteous people, so little compassion for the reality of a woman stuck in a bad situation.